Why Systems Beat Charity | Revenue Strategy for Purpose-Driven Founders

speaker-0: ⁓ okay.

speaker-1: be able to get through.

speaker-0: Good.

speaker-1: Yeah, weird. ⁓ Sometimes that transition, you know, from the cold into the warmer.

speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. I always, I tend to, I feel like I tend to get sick when, ⁓ for some reason has to do with the air conditioning. I feel like.

speaker-1: in a little bit. My wife actually said that yesterday because we just turned it on. It just came on in our condo, think on, I think it was Friday or whatever, because it was getting warm. ⁓ so, you know, the board said, okay, I'll just turn it on. We turned it on and yeah, it could have been that too. anyway, we'll get through it. No problem. We'll figure it out.

speaker-0: Yeah. I am in Northeast Indiana. Yeah. You're Fort Wayne, if you're familiar.

speaker-1: Hello. ⁓ in the Yes, I am. Yes, I am. For sure. Absolutely. I played probably in every town or hockey and football and all the other sports and everything all over the United States. I was a big guy and I up becoming professional athlete. But yeah, we went everywhere. We just were all over the And that was one of the great things about sports, right? You get to see everywhere. You got all these different places. Someone was having a tournament. Let's go there. Yeah, was pretty cool.

speaker-0: So you played against the Fort Wayne Comets, is that right?

speaker-1: I can't remember, honestly, so long ago. I do remember, yeah, there was some place, somebody said something to me the other day too. And I said, yeah, I've been there. He said, no way. said, yeah, I played, it was a Peewee tournament or something, think, up for the big one in Canada. And we went on a little tour of the team because we were really, good team. Well, we won the biggest tournament in Canada, which was the Peewee one in Quebec.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: And so our team decided to take it because the team was really well funded and it was stacked. It was built to do this. And so we went on these, you know, about the seven city kind of tour over 10 days type of thing. And now we were playing all these and we were kind of picking up the best teams. We get the best competition. Right. ⁓ So we kind of did that. It was always, it was just really a bonding thing. That type of thing. I think we were like 10.

speaker-0: Thanks. That's awesome. The comments, it's like, what do call it? Minor leagues, I guess. I don't know what it's called in hockey,

speaker-1: It's probably the AHL or IHL, one of those two. I think they have that there. I never played there. I went right to the pros at 19. And then instead of playing in the minors here, which you had to, by the way, I chose the European group. Couldn't go right to the NHL. You had to go to, they wanted you to go, some teams wanted you to go for a year or two.

speaker-0: Okay.

speaker-1: Montreal, which drafted me one meter there for three years. I'm like, I'm going to be here as a minor. So I'll go to Sweden. It's just much better hockey anyway. So I did that and I never, I almost didn't come back. It was so good and I was having so much fun. What a ride that was.

speaker-0: Yeah Mmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you get to live in Sweden.

speaker-1: And the women, I'm the only Canadian playing in their NHL, I'm the superstar. I'm hanging out with like Abba and Bjorn Borg and people. ⁓ yeah, that's Bjorn from Abba. We used to run in the morning. He was a hockey fan. was like nuts over hockey. And we used to run in the morning. Yeah, it was like, and they were so big. to like to me over there,

speaker-0: No way! Oh my god.

speaker-1: because I was a forer and hockey's just like it is in Canada, like huge. And so I was just as big a star as they were, which was really kind of weird if you think they look bad about it. just like, are you talking about? But it's true. yeah, so it was, yeah, I just had such a great time and met some great people, still friends today, a lot of these people. So yeah, we should be saving these stories for the future show.

speaker-0: Well done. I was going to say, yeah, I mean, we can get right into it here. me grab. this. Oops, not that. I just want to have like your, ⁓ the website link open that you wanted to share and all that. Do good society. ⁓ I don't know if you had a chance to look at ⁓ the briefing that I sent. I apologize. I sent it later than I usually do. I'm sorry about that. Okay. All right. We're going to like, I set this up to kind of like, ⁓

speaker-1: Basically, I was so happy.

speaker-0: talk about So basically, your key point here is ⁓ positive disruption. sometimes you've got to disrupt things, but positive disruption is the best option in that case.

speaker-1: That's our key. We want to make sure because we've really put a lot of time and effort in over the last like really eight years I guess now from the time we actually created and everything and now we're just getting accepted by the charity world because they're not obviously there's no way they're happy about a for-profit social enterprise coming in and telling them we got a change and everything and so it was really really difficult like really. And, but now all of a sudden they're realizing why we built the model and how it is a positive disruption. But they can, together we could actually, I'm not saying we're here to replace you. I'm saying we're here to work together so we can actually start to eradicate some of these colonies. That's the only way it's done. So yeah, it's been a journey.

speaker-0: Yeah. OK. So good deal. I'll just get going here, and we'll just say we're starting now. OK. So my guest today has played pro hockey, run global campaigns for AT &T, Procter & Gamble, and Toyota as an EVP at Satchi and Satchi, I believe. that right? and now runs a for-profit social enterprise built to fund 30 million meals a month. Three careers, one pattern, he calls it positive disruption, and it is the reason he is still winning at every stage of the game. This is Stephen Clark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome, thank you. Thanks for joining us and welcome. ⁓ Let's see here. So, so.

speaker-1: Nice things. ⁓

speaker-0: ⁓ Real quick, I'm going to edit this, I'm going to do that was like the opening hook and then the guest intro comes next. So, alright. This is like before the music and after the music. Alright, so Stephen Clark is the founder and CEO of RTG Group, a for-profit social enterprise attacking the root causes of hunger, homelessness, and poverty through corporate marketing budgets instead of charitable donations. Before RTG, Steven spent 25 years in advertising, including an EVP seat at Satchi and Satchi, working on accounts like AT &T, P &G, and ⁓ Toyota. Before that, he played professional hockey. He's an author, a speaker, and the co-founder of the Do Good Society, a membership program on track to hit a million members by the end of 2026. Steven, welcome to the Growth Ceiling Podcast.

speaker-1: Well, thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.

speaker-0: Yeah. All right. you ⁓ listen, let's just get right into it here. You talk about positive disruption and that's our key point here today. Most people who talk about disruption, generally speaking, are talking about breaking things, know, move fast and break things, right? What is the difference and why does that distinction matter right now?

speaker-1: So yeah, I think we have to go back to when we first started. We don't, because of the advertising, I never start anything without all the data, whether it's a campaign or a new company or a new product, whatever. So when we got that and we went through everything, we realized that the current charity nonprofit world in both Canada and the United States is really built to, I mean, they're the number one. the number one employer in Canada and number three in the United States. Think about the industries in United States. They're number three with almost 14 million people. So they do good, but might not be considered doing good by others. I give my money to feed the child, not to have somebody get paid. But those people's 14 million people, they're stimulating the economy doing it. So when we looked at it and said there's a new model needed as a former creative business strategist, I said, well, that's true. You we were dealing with a research company and I said, all that's true, but it's to be done very, very strategically, very delicately because it's not like they don't do good. Yes, causes are going up and all the things that we know, but they're still doing good. by, just a mere thought of, you know, employing almost 17 million people in North America. That's pretty good. So that was why we dubbed it a positive disruption because we wanted to meet our goals, were obviously eradicating some of these causes that we've faced for years. So that's how it all came to be.

speaker-0: Okay. Have you ⁓ felt at any point in your own career this idea of a positive disruption or? ⁓

speaker-1: No, well, I experienced that in hockey because I ⁓ was, my hero was Bobby Orr, ⁓ who certainly possibly disrupted the hockey sport with the way he played the position and changed it forever while he's the go-to in my opinion. So, you know, and I tailored my game after him. And so, you know, I saw it, I didn't really know what that meant at the time, but yeah, I think that that Bobby probably possibly disrupted the hockey.

speaker-0: Works on many levels. right. That's good. All right. So speaking of professional hockey, ⁓ what do you suppose playing at that level ⁓ taught you about systems and team dynamics and pressure? And how do you still use that today?

speaker-1: Yeah, think that I think professional sports isn't what people think it is. ⁓ You go into professional, you hit the professional level, having played a game. When you get to the professional level, it's a business. It's an absolute business. And back in the day, was even worse because not like today, if you get hurt and you're up for two weeks and you come back, your spot is there, you go back in your spot. That's not the way it worked back then. You were out. you got hurt and you out for two weeks and you came back, had to earn your spot back. That was a lot of pressure because more more people back then, including myself, would play with, ⁓ know, we probably got a concussion the day before or something and we just sloughed it off and we did a lot of those things. ⁓ Yeah, so yeah, the pressure was, but you know, think for most part, I signed my first contract at 19. I mean, I was still a kid. I still have fun everything I did in life, didn't matter what it was. But it was definitely a business, there was obligations you had to do, especially when I went to Sweden, as a Canadian playing in that lead series. it was different. And that from a life perspective, I think is great. I think it really, the discipline, the things that you're taught. mean, one of the greatest things I learned was to make sure after hockey that I always had a mentor because we always had mentors. had whether they're coaches or managers or agents or whatever it may be. So I think that that's one of the reasons I was successful in my business career as an entrepreneur is because I always surrounded myself with great mentors because I was just I was accustomed to doing that. So yeah, it was a great great foundation for the rest of my

speaker-0: Nice. So working as an EVP ⁓ for Sachi and Sachi, am I saying that correctly? Sachi and Sachi. ⁓ What do you suppose that taught you about how ⁓ large brands make decisions?

speaker-1: And such and such. Well, I had built up a pretty large company myself, which I sold.

speaker-0: Okay, prior to that even, you say? Yeah.

speaker-1: Well, yeah, yeah, too. And then then publicist, which is the umbrella company and the main company that owns actually and we over them and all those brothers. So I went there and and I did and I did that because it was a transition in my company. And then, you know, I've been dealing with large brands. In fact, I took one of the largest computer brand software companies through Y2K. That was SAP. It's my company with my client. So I've had a lot of experience doing that. And I think the reality is, you just have to understand that I became a strategist during that time. I became a creative business strategist. That was kind of a role. And so it's always about the same as when you're playing hockey or any sport really. It's just thinking about two, it's like chess. When you're thinking two moves ahead and where's this guy gonna be and where's the guy gonna be when. You never, Wayne Gronzki was great at saying, you never pass the puck where the guy is. You pass the puck where it's going to be. That was one of his great things. that's what you have to do. then business is the same way. So you kind of have to anticipate those things. I think that, again, that the sports foundation laid all that.

speaker-0: ⁓ Okay, so. I don't know if this is an appropriate way to ask this, was there a breaking point that moved you out of that selling brands into building a social enterprise? What was that?

speaker-1: So I talked a little earlier about mentors. And so I met Stephen Covey, highly successful people. I worked with Stephen for nine years. As a mentor and a friend. And Stephen was the first one, because we would talk a lot about sports. Stephen loves sports, by the way. ⁓ And he was the first one to really put it in terms that I really came to came to understand is that life is like a book. It's comprised of various chapters. Some of them you'll like, some of them you won't like. All of them you should be learning from. Some will be longer than others, but they're just chapters. So my sports was abruptly, after I blew up my knee, I six operations. was it. You never play again. That was It was over. that was, Stephen was really good at that. When he used to ask me all the time about a lot of mentors would do some different barriers, but they will say to you, what do you want on your tombstone? I personally hate that question because it's like, when you want to start thinking about when I'm dead. I mean, what are you talking about? He was very persistent because I think he knew I hated the question. But so I used to say, he said, well, he'd say, well, a professional hockey player, right? What are you talking about? Big advertising guy again.

speaker-0: But Steve.

speaker-1: Well, what do you want? And so finally one day I said, he made a positive impact. he said, Stephen, big Stephen, what have you? And instinctively, you know, I'm like, of course I have a giving you a list of charities. I've been on boards and everything. And he's giving me that. Stephen looks at and overachieve. I am, what is that? Anybody can do that. Like, what are you going to do? That kind of put that in my head. And then I started realizing, cause I am, I am spiritual. that that is the reason.

speaker-0: Hmm

speaker-1: Honestly, I believe that wholeheartedly what I'm doing right now. So when it came time and sold the company and transitioned it out and it's gone with Satchi. And I said to my wife, I'm going to, my next chapter is going to be in my last book because I just what I'm here is to make a positive impact in the world. And that's when she said, well, how are you going to do that? I said, I don't know, but we're going to travel, which we did. And while we're gone, we're going to hire a research company to find out, Ev, about the giving space in both chem. And that's what we did. And then when we came back, went through all that. And that's how we ended up doing what we're doing now. That's how it happened.

speaker-0: Mm. Yeah, nice. ⁓ My wife and I ⁓ often find it funny to go through the papers. I don't know if this is appropriate, if it's funny, but looking at people's, know, ⁓ I guess their obituaries and what they're known for. And they'll often have like, loved watching TV, you know, that kind of stuff like, you know.

speaker-1: But you know, think so many people just kind of like, you know, walk through life and really understand the opportunity that's given them. But I, you know, I was very poor as a kid growing up and because of my disability was one of reasons I think that I was able to get out of all that. But I learned so much and for whatever reason, you know, I just kept learning and never, never made someone said to me very young, like, it's okay to make mistakes, just don't make them twice.

speaker-0: out.

speaker-1: the the ⁓

speaker-0: sick Yeah, that's good. Nice. ⁓ you know, as I reading through some of, know, your background and all that kind of stuff, it turned up that I believe that ⁓ you're late, there's a story with your late mother, is that correct? And how that's kind of shaped your relationship with homelessness and whatnot?

speaker-1: huge. So we were, said, we're being ripped for my mom. My mom would give the she she she always taught me to in fact, RTG receiving through giving. She taught me it's better to give than receive, which obviously I know now is flaw. But at the time, it was just that we didn't have it. So was really difficult. I used to think to myself always, shouldn't we get it first? But she was just honestly a saint. I mean, she really was my dad, you know, alcoholic, wasn't a bad guy. He wasn't very reliable. ⁓ And so she just taught me so much and it was about giving. It was about ⁓ considering other people. She was really, really a big influence on me right up until she died actually, 10 years ago now. she, I wanted to, this was just before I kind of got into this. And when that was one of the reasons. I said, well, I want to make my mother proud. We all want to make our mother proud. But I specifically said, I know this is why I was put here. And so I want her to be looking down and saying, yeah, this is exactly why I brought him here. And that's very important to me.

speaker-0: Yeah, right. Gotcha. Okay, so I guess at some point there along the way, ⁓ homelessness and your focus on that became more of a business problem rather than a charity problem. guess that's kind of like...

speaker-1: So the reality was, Stephen, you would say to me all the time, well, you need to decide what that is, what problem you've solved. And I said, no. I said, no, you're wrong. I'm the strategist, not you. You're a great business guy, I'm the strategist and I'm going to make a positive impact in the world. And the funny thing is, is this business model that we've created, which of course involves hunger and homelessness, this business model is not about hunger. This business model is more about the industry because for example, we just launched a it's called PD purpose driven transformation. ⁓ A purpose driven transformation, which will be in every major city in North America in next three to five years. It goes into the city and it goes to all of the charities and nonprofits and says, give me your volunteers. And after we listen to the swearing, we're like, no, here's why. Because volunteers is really down, significantly. We're going to bring it back. We're going to make it cool again. And the way we're going to do that is they're not going to be volunteers anymore. They're going to be do good society ambassadors. And a do good society ambassador can do our program with no objections of where's the money going, all the transparent, no objections. Get at the 4870, take a portion of that 4870 that we do, give that back to their charity of choice, and we can still pay them. So the first 80 million volunteers in North America can't get paid, it's illegal. Now we've got a model to turn them into ambassadors for a for-profit social enterprise, and everybody will. So now when we go into the city, diabetes, AIDS, cancer, all of those causes now are going to be influenced positively to our model. Clean up the city. That's what's called purpose driven transformation. The transformation of every city, get rid of the hunger, get rid of homelessness, but also reduce a lot of these other causes. That's really what I'm.

speaker-0: Okay. ⁓ Real quick, just before we move on from there, do you feel looking at your hockey, advertising, social enterprise now, is there a pattern that you see there that's connecting all three of those?

speaker-1: Yeah, I think there's certain things that I probably learned early on, probably even before hockey, the discipline, the toughness. I read very early on, somebody gave it to me. ⁓ I think it was Bob Proctor, because he was in Toronto, and I think I was there when I was a teenager. And he gave me Think and Grow Rich, which by the way, I still have. ⁓ no.

speaker-0: Napoleon Hill.

speaker-1: greatest book ever. as far as that and so I read that and Napoleon Hill says in there there's a secret in the book which is all built around the book. Some of you will find it some of you won't some of you will think you've got it it's not really what I was intended but the first time I read it Bob it was Bob because Bob said to me what did you get out of the book? I said well I got one thing you know that's really the only real thing I needed he's like what? I said that everything's about your belief system. A Bob writer, I said, what? What did you say? I said, well, let's write in there. The quote is, if you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. Well, conceive it, any idiot can do that. mean, it's just dreams or whatever. And achieving is the end result. So there's only one word left. And man, that's the deal right there. So I developed really early on the ability to get an unwavering belief in myself and what I was doing. And I just, that's been honestly any success I've had and you know, I've had a lot. This one's going to be huge. I we expect 20 to 25 million members. That's, you know, four or five years. So that's a 12 billion dollar company. But that's all because of the belief. I should never, I mean, based on what I've gone through, especially this one, I shouldn't still be doing it. They're so fun that I spent millions of my own money. Should have said, forget this. These guys can have this. But even my wife said, know, are you still there? I'm like, are you kidding me? Stronger than ever. These guys, I don't care what they say. They're just, ⁓ So, and it turns out now some of those same ones that told me what an idiot I was and everything else are now coming back and saying, okay, ⁓ that's a polite word. A lot worse than that, the we got us. ⁓ And especially from some of the biggies. in the industry, the CEOs and some of the biggest chairs. You can't be this, you can't do that. like, you're going to find out one day that it's not only can I and am I going to, but it's going to benefit you. No, that's well, I guess I said some of those be the same people are now coming back and say, how do we work? Absolutely. That's, that's the way it is. And that's how we do it.

speaker-0: So on this podcast, have, talk about three like pillars, right? Visibility of the business, right? Are you being seen by the people that you want to be seen by, right? Your ideal audience. Does everybody on your team have access to the information that they need so that, know, internal visibility, right? Viability, does the business run, you know, does it stand on its own two legs? And then of course, if you have both of those things, then your business is more valuable, right? ⁓ So just to kind of go off of that, how are you approaching visibility in ⁓ the Dubu society, for example?

speaker-1: So that now, so this is relatively new for us. We were focusing on other areas and then we realized that because we have some other announcements for, excuse me, later this year that are going to be really, excuse me, mind blowing. So we have the visibility that we want right now, ⁓ right now. But it will start to grow as we launch these PDTs. Because PDT in every city is partnered with the DUPIT Society. And they're the ones that are taking it to the volunteers. The real exposure, funny enough, will not come on digital, which everyone obviously would think it would. But it's really going to come from these volunteers who been doing this for every year. In Toronto, we just launched PDT Toronto. And there's 1.3 million volunteers in Toronto. and there's about 120,000 of those that raise money. We have 120,000 salespeople waiting for us.

speaker-0: None of whom are getting paid currently, right?

speaker-1: I get that it's illegal to get paid. So all of sudden, we're saying, we're going to remove the transparency, which by the way, that's a huge issue, right? Because people are asking, where's my money going? What's the impact it's making? And these poor volunteers are like, oh, well, here's the thing that they're giving me. they're saying, well, that's, mean, they're having issues. That's one of the reasons why it's dropping. So we remove that. We tell them right away, here it is. So it's all there. So that's. That's the real, that was always the secret sauce of us really taking it out. And then the corporate program, you had mentioned a little bit before, the ROI squared. So that goes into the corporations because the corporations, for example, the United States, they give total, all the corporations in the United States give $25 billion a year to the charities and nonprofits. Those same corporations.

speaker-0: Hmm.

speaker-1: spend $500 billion a year on marketing.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: I'm not a non-profit or charity. You know why they give that money. They might give it to do good, I'm not suggesting they don't, but they do it for tax receipts. And the reason it's 25 billion is because the government, as we know in both countries, they cap that. You can only give so much based on your gross profits. So that's all they can give and still get tax receipts. And they're not giving that to tax profits, so forget that. So that was fine with me because I was 25 years in the marketing advertising role. So I created probably arguably the number one or certainly will be this year, number one marketing program in the world where a company can not only do our program and get a guaranteed return on the investment, but they can also get a return on impact because that money's going to our memberships, which is of course, as you know, the children and homelessness. So that's how we kind of did it. And so visibility is also very strategically, people don't realize this. They just want to get out there and get everything done. But it's gotta be very strategic how you roll things out. can't just all of sudden, you get a bunch of money and you start doing ads and all that kind of stuff. It's gotta be very, very smart so that when people get it, you actually will grow a business faster off of going slower because the people then that get the membership and everything, they start talking about all the savings and you get the videos of them saving money and all this. And that's gonna generate more and then faster and it picks up like that. It's like a snowball.

speaker-0: ⁓ A lot of user generated content in that case and testimonials.

speaker-1: So that's a lot of. Desperate for people who actually, you know, regular people paying 4870 a month and they got the best. The lady went in Vancouver, Canada, just said, you know, we save $1300. Actually, it was perfect because they're boomers and they take three trips a year and they say 1300 on the one trip. So she called me and we had we actually got it. She said, my husband's going to join as well. And so I didn't understand. No, he didn't. Why? the We feel guilty so he's gonna join as well. And I'm like, well, you don't have to do that. She said, no, no, we're doing it. I mean, we got two more trips and we got the restaurants and everything else. So it was really, really funny. Great. It's gonna be a great video. Those are the types of things, right? I could use those to get into.

speaker-0: I'm Yeah, yeah.

speaker-1: you know, baby boomer clubs and once you want to leave a legacy and stuff like that. ⁓ yeah, that's how you grow.

speaker-0: One of the things I like to talk about with the value pillar is referrals, right? How key that is to a business. Word of mouth, getting people talking about you, but you gotta do something to get them to talk about, right? So that's the key. Obviously, you guys have that nailed down, sounds like, yeah.

speaker-1: We've got the one of the one of the secret sauces in our in our corporate one is we know when we take a marketing budget from you know, one of the clients we don't do the marketing for the client we do the marketing for us we turn that money into members and then because of that then we can do things like you know, get into and buy different products from the client to guarantee the ROI and then do really cool stuff with that product. So it's really a, it's really a kind of a transitional thing. And we're, we're also recycling money that will continue to go over and over and over. Because according to AC Nielsen, which we hired to vet our membership model, they said, you know, on average people will be in your membership for a minimum of 10 years. Because said same as 19 year old kids said in our focus groups, why would we stop? Exactly. If you're doing what the lady's doing, she's saving three, four times just on trips, and then she's got all the other perks up, why would they stop? And that's the whole idea.

speaker-0: So just for the listeners clarification here, the way your model works is that you do you approach the corporate ⁓ entities that have something that they want to get out there or are they approaching you? How does that usually?

speaker-1: No, so because of my background obviously I have a lot of corporate world that I know especially bigger brands. So I can go to a corporation say you know give me a million dollars of your marketing budget. know I know what they are sometimes I set them. So give me a million dollars and I'm going to turn that into a guaranteed million dollars in sales. First the millions are right off them it's part of their offer. So million dollars in sales is cool. And because CMOs these days are now challenged by the board and the CEO to turn some of that into sales, it's not just about branding anymore now, you've got to show some sales. They love that. And then when we tell them that then what we're doing with those sales, how we integrate them into the community and all these different things, I mean, it's a real win-win. It's very strategic and it's a real win-win. And yeah, that's how we do it.

speaker-0: businesses then that you're working with, they're turning that around and saying, hey, look at the good that we're doing. ⁓ Yes.

speaker-1: We want to shoot that for some commercials and stuff like that. So it's starting to get even bigger than we thought it was going to be, even some of these brands. So yeah, it's going to take, I mean, it's starting to take off right now, but this was our year. We got hit, had Wells Fargo as a client, and then COVID hit and everything like that, and a bunch of other things with Wells Fargo. a lot of people don't know about that.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: I'll tell you one thing that hardly anybody knows is that during that two years, they very quietly pretty much let go of everybody. yeah.

speaker-0: They were at one point the fastest rising, fastest growing bank in America, I believe.

speaker-1: The largest bank in America and the largest still to this day the largest corporate fine of three billion dollars. Yeah, we shouldn't be talking we should have it this way

speaker-0: That's no joke.

speaker-1: ⁓ but we had such a great program for them because they were going to they were going to do it in every branch and every, you know, city. mean, it was really a cool program.

speaker-0: Was this after the fact, like they were trying to improve the image? that the-

speaker-1: ⁓ no, this was before. then they got there was the problem. They got the they got the fine ⁓ before COVID. And so they're like, wow, we're not sure. And I'm like, are you crazy? I said, let me tell you here, I'll pay two scenarios. This was going to happen. Number one, Wells Fargo three years from now, Wells Fargo, Wells Fargo, I did a thing that got the three billion dollar fines as a fictitious account. That's one scenario. Second scenario. If you continue to do program. while far go are they the bank in America sending hunger. Absolutely. But then you know a few months after that then COVID hits and then blah blah blah. Yeah, was it was it was an interesting time for us because we were we were really I mean we had all in on that very seldom.

speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. ⁓ Through everything, yeah. But... Yeah.

speaker-1: It was a huge climb and huge opportunity and millions and millions of dollars. We lost a lot.

speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. I can only imagine. Kagrish. So you came this close to being the one who rehabbed their image.

speaker-1: Oh, and under that, we would be right now, if that had happened, we would be, I would tell you right now, honestly, we would be at least 25 million members right now. If that had have went through. At least 25 million. That's 50 bucks a head, so think about that, right? Now we're up to 13 billion a year. And look at the good we're doing. In fact, we would have almost eradicated everything we can of the homelessness, for sure. It would have been gone. And in hunger, we would have dropped almost in every city to single digits. ⁓ Right now, there's not a city in North America that doesn't have double digits in food insecurity. So ⁓ yeah, that was just bad timing. But we kept going. So here we are. We're about to do it.

speaker-0: So RTG, ⁓ there are six programs involved, right?

speaker-1: Well, so there's programs and there's companies. So ⁓ like, for example, a Do Good Society is a company. Predominantly, most of them are owned the majority by RTG Group USA. ⁓ But some of them, and some of them are programmed, ROI squared is a program. The benefactor ⁓ is a program. So there's some that are programs. PDTs are all individual companies in every city.

speaker-0: Okay.

speaker-1: We play around with them as well. In Canada, for example, eight cities launching this year, every one of them will be 100 % women owned and operated for a profit system. So we're just trying something different and in Toronto and already it's kind of taken off. People love that. And there's 70 % of the women, 70 % of the workforce in the charity world is women. And we figured if we're going to have a program and develop a company that's going to actually solve the problem, It should be run by women. They're the ones doing the work anyway. So that's why we set that up. Plus my wife insisted on, she didn't know profit and she wanted more profit as well. I'm like, okay, here's what we'll do. So she's got that. She's the majority on.

speaker-0: So are you just just for clarification, ⁓ the fund that you're generating, you're using for social good. How are you dispersing those funds exactly? Like, how is that getting, are you going through nonprofits then? Is that what I'm hearing?

speaker-1: Yeah, we go into every city, every community, and we make deals with food and homeless shelter. The homeless program is our program. If we can't find anybody in the city, which we haven't so far, it's been good. But our program for homeless, eradicating homelessness, and 40 % of the 4870 goes to that program that is for job training, guaranteed jobs, and subsidized housing. Not affordable, subsidized, very important. Every city's got enough to even LA has got enough to put the people there, but not when you talk about affordable. No city in America or Canada has enough affordable housing. So they keep blaming it on that. I'm like, what's wrong with you guys? You've got all these vacancies and everything. Well, they can't afford that. That's why we do subsidized housing. So that's what we do there. And then the food charities, the only thing we ask from all of our partners is that they be very transparent. We must be transparent to our partner. How many meals, right? So we started with Feeding America, obviously the biggest, 4.3 billion. And then as we went into the local cities, I think it started with Atlanta, we got kind of, it wasn't pushback because they all deal with feeding. But it was, ⁓ if you're coming into Atlanta, opening here, you can deal directly with us. We can do more for the city rather than. this big national thing. So we made deals with the right ones who would provide us with the actual things, the numbers. Because we're actually building right now where we do a quarterly impact report that will be on our websites. And we want every member to be able to go and get that if they want to see it and all the other stuff. We want to be very, very transparent, and we want them to see exactly where their money's going. But if you go to our website, I'm not sure if you have, but you go to the member. You can actually see the breakdown of exactly what's worth the money. Society, if you click on member, you'll see one of the slides has got exactly where the $19.48 going to the homeless situation. That's 40 % of the 48 % and then X amount on the food. It tells it right there.

speaker-0: Do good society. $7 for food, $7.50 for overhead.

speaker-1: Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So we've got, so they say, how much you're over at? Well, it's 15%. Well, how much money do you make? $2 and 85 cents. Of every 4870 you make 285. Yeah. And by the way, don't tell me that.

speaker-0: Yeah. That's got to be better than average.

speaker-1: I think it's less than ⁓ half of average.

speaker-0: I mean, in terms of ⁓ how does this stack up to a normal nonprofit budget, let's say?

speaker-1: Yeah, we're, overheads are less than.

speaker-0: Okay, that's what I figured.

speaker-1: But in all fairness to them, here's the one thing, I've talked about this, nonprofits and charities are businesses. You register as a business, and then you decide to go nonprofit or charity, you register back. But the reality is they're a business. So the average business, every time they get a sale, 1 third goes to overhead. So that's just natural business. My business, everybody does. So that would be 33%. Excuse me. I think said that if it was only 30 years, you know, it might be okay, but it's not. ⁓ we can go, anybody can go right now and find out what it is. I'll just go into chat GBT or, you know, Gemini or whoever you want to go, it'll tell you. And it's not, it's not good. But again, I look at that as not a bad thing. If they're employing all these people. You know, mean, wow, that's a good thing for society and everything else.

speaker-0: People employed who actually want to try to improve the situation. Okay, you know, that's great. Let's just let's have more of those. Yeah

speaker-1: They just need help. That's the reason. You strip it all away. My conclusion was these guys all have great intentions. They're all good people. They just need somebody to help. That's all. Not change. Keep doing what you're doing. Just work with me on these volunteer things and all that kind of stuff. I even had a recent CEO of a big charity that originally said there's no way you're getting my people because they have the disease. So they're not going to go out and do this. And I said, well, let's ask them. And we did the whole thing. And by the end of it, every one of them saying, of course we're going to do this because we're still raising more money for the charity choice. And now, and there's no transparency issues because that money comes from us. That money comes through us to the charity. So we know where it's going. So even that CEO said, this is, this is actually great. This I didn't, I never thought I would live to see something like this, that, you know, wasn't trying to destroy the industry but was actually totally wrong.

speaker-0: There's something to be said about transparency, think, with nonprofits because, you know, are organizations that are explicitly set up to show the transparency of the nonprofits. What is going on there? That's interesting. ⁓

speaker-1: I think the problem with that, just to be clear, that a long time ago, they were kind of, you know, really just focusing on all the good they were doing and all this other stuff and everything. And so as it got to be more obvious, they were hiring more people and everything like that, they never really decided, made that decision to say, hey, let's just tell these people that, you know, this amounts 50 % is going to the overheads and all this other stuff or whatever it may be. They just kept you know, doing the same thing over and over again, because it was the way things were done. And so who would have, you know, thought 25 years ago that AI was going to be able to tell them everything. I think now they're in a little bit of a problem. But again, as long as they have models and I hope other people will create models that we've got. So that will help them to do it because I, you know, who wants to disrupt, you know, 17 million employees? mean, I want them to keep doing that all the time. ⁓ So I think that we can work together and really solve some of these problems.

speaker-0: ⁓ ⁓ All right. So let's see here. So my audience tends to be like ⁓ service-based business owners and that kind of thing. I also do work with nonprofits, incidentally, most, well, I won't say most, many service-based business owners, founders, they tend to treat referrals as kind of like a nice to have situation. But here you are, you've built your entire model around that. And so what are the founders, ⁓ what are they missing when they treat these referrals as a marketing tactic instead of an actual business design choice? This is a strategic choice that we're making here.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think that the reality is that referrals on the surface, it sounds like a good idea, but it's not executed properly, right? It's like, you you give me, you go out, I used to kid people all the time. They say, you know, you got all these people, I mean, can you refer? I say, yeah, okay, so ⁓ what's the deal there? Well, I have this referral thing, so you refer, I get the client and I give you a commission. I used to say exactly this. Okay, let me just get this straight. I should stop doing my business. I should go and get you referrals. You can grow your business and I can get some commission. Is that what you're telling me basically? And they would all do the same thing. Well, no. I'm like, well, yeah. That's what you're asking. Let's create a win-win where we can go together. Let's do, I used to create in my business, I used to meetings, networking

speaker-0: Yeah. Speaking of Stephen Covey,

speaker-1: And yeah, we do win-win-win. That's all we talk about. you do, ⁓ you know, I used to do this all the time with especially the financial groups. They'd have their, got some clients, big clients, manual life and stuff. And they would be doing these things. I'm like, what are you doing? What are you talking about? Don't you go from referrals? Yeah. Okay. So then why aren't we having five different companies doing this event together? You're one of them. You get a real estate company, get this and all these guys. then people are coming to real estate, they're going to get to hear you. People are coming from this, they're going to hear you and the people, know, all these different things. And you put it together. Isn't that the greatest way to get referrals? they're like, whoa, what a great idea. Honest to God, I'm like, well, not really. mean, it's pretty, pretty, I would think it's pretty obvious, but obviously it wasn't. So those are the types of things where you say, okay, let's get together. I used to sit with other CEOs sometimes and say, okay, bring out your client list. Okay, I'll bring out mine. Let's go through them. Which one do you, I really want that one. Okay, cool. I already want that one. Okay, let's start making introductions. That's how we can grow. Nevermind commissions and all that other crap. We've got time for that. We're building our business. So it's how you do it. There's nothing, referrals are great, but how you do it is how effective they'll be. Otherwise people just stop, you you give a guy three or four, and it doesn't close anything or whatever. So you've really just kind of wasted your time now and you don't have time to waste. Nobody's got time to waste maybe. Businesses, you're busy all the time. So there's ways to do it well so you can grow it again.

speaker-0: And like the do good society is growing based around referrals a lot because these volunteers are telling other volunteers, presumably, right? we kind of snowballs that.

speaker-1: We get those referrals, we get referrals all the time from our members now. They're referring other people saying, got the savings, just say $1,300. I'm just doing this. And the other thing is, that our perks app. So I tell all the members, by the way, when you go into a restaurant, ask them if they're part of this, you know, this is the Dubit society. And if they say no, say here, and we put a QR code. on their phone, they click that QR code and they find out all the way they can be involved, which costs them nothing. We don't charge them anything. So now imagine that as a restaurant or whatever. I'm going to get free leads, not just leads, they're clients, and I don't pay anything to the company who got it to me, I just give the discount to my client. That's a great deal.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, are you mainly focused on large urban centers or is this like you're looking for every small town and every and across the. Yeah, okay.

speaker-1: We started with the major. We'll spread out. Toronto, for example, is over 6 million people now in the greater gentile. So we can do in Toronto and then hit all those other places as well. But then there are other cities like north of Toronto, Bury and a few places like that, that are going to get their own. ⁓ We were just asked actually, we're outside of Toronto in ⁓ London, in Cambridge, in Kitchener. They want their own. They have a food in their problem. So that's what we put a PDT there. Of course we put a PDT. That's our goal. They don't have to be all, you know, feeding or having two, 300,000 members. We can have some that are 50 members that we can have, whatever. So yeah, we just want to solve the problem where we can. That's our goal. That's what we do.

speaker-0: Yeah, OK. So I guess, going back to referrals a little bit here, what would you say is the difference between asking a customer for a referral versus building a business where the whole concept of referrals is inevitable?

speaker-1: What Well, I think if you can do that, I think I see nothing wrong with asking customers for a referral for sure. Customers. I mean, I built my entire business. My advertising company, which grew very large, honestly was built around SAP. The third largest business software company in the world. When I got them, they had one employee in North America. And as they grew, because they had the only four digit code at the time before the whole Y2K thing.

speaker-0: Wow.

speaker-1: And their client base became huge. And I created all these marketing initiatives for them. in those, we'd go cross country tours, for example, we'd have Hewlett Packard, Deloitte, all these different companies, who all became my clients. Because I had the name down, right? And I'd get to know them all. And then I would go to the vice president's sales and I'd say, me a favor, introduce me to the... to the VP sales there at Hewlett Packard? Absolutely. And he'd always wait till we were doing the big event. And then he'd say, ⁓ Steve here, I'm on the introduction. This is guy who does all of our stuff. Like you should be using him, right? The guy's like, great, fantastic. He's my artist. That's how we grew. We literally grew off of that one client. I we had other clients, but from that one, that's how we got so big. And that's actually why we ended up selling the company. Because those clients got so big that, know, other than the big, large guys wanted them. ⁓ So that was kind of perfect timing for us.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The referral tour.

speaker-1: That was what it was. I didn't build it on that. I would never tell somebody. That's it worked. I built such a great relationship with SAP that it relied on me for everything. I remember telling the head of marketing, I'm here just to make you look good. Don't give me credit for anything. I'm not interested in that. I want the business. I want to grow. My business wasn't very large.

speaker-0: But.

speaker-1: time it became very large because of that but that was the whole idea and you know make other people look good and you're going to benefit from it.

speaker-0: So, that's what we do. Help other people get what they want. Absolutely. you'll get what you want, right? ⁓

speaker-1: Stephen was great, Brian Tracy's great, but provide value. Provide value to people. mean, that's the real key. That's what you want to, if it wasn't doing a positive impact in the world on my tombstone, it would be he provided value to others. That was the other. ⁓

speaker-0: Hmm Nice. ⁓ part of your leadership ⁓ philosophy is ⁓ shift the focus, is that right?

speaker-1: That is a program that I was coming across so many people that were having problems, financial, it started with financial problems, right? I mean, especially in the COVID and a whole bunch of things. And so I always had inadvertently, I just did it because I realized from my mentorship really good that focusing on a problem is totally useless. mean, honest to God, it's one of the dumbest things we do as human beings. because you can recognize it, you can acknowledge it, but why would you want to focus on it? You're not going to solve any problems. So I start shifting the focus to nothing but solutions. And I would solve the problem all the time. And then I'd have somebody and they'd come to me and say, you know, I need some help. Here's what's happening. And they talk for half an hour about the problem. And I would say, ⁓ that's great. That's real problem. How much time do you spend on solutions? And I honestly thought they had three heads. What do mean by that? So I created Shift the Focus, STF. And I actually have a course in everything, a giveaway. And it's really, really good. It's helped a lot of people. And you can't believe if I'm sitting down and talking to somebody in a half an hour, from the time they sat down to the time they leave, they're not even the same person. Because they're just focusing over here now. That gives people hope. That gives them drive. Like, OK, now I know what to do. It's like a

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: You a path, you've given them the path. so that's one that I just created and my wife and I live it all the time. We're still not without problems. you mean the world has no problems. And it's always father just.

speaker-0: There's problems and then there's problems.

speaker-1: They will not go away unless you focus on the solution. It will stay forever if you just keep focusing on the problem.

speaker-0: I've told that I focus too much on the problems at various times in my life. Someone told me one time, kind of like what you're saying here, the way they phrase it was, don't worry so much about how it can't be done, but think about how it can.

speaker-1: that's shifting the focus right there. No, that's great advice and I still help a lot of people because my wife has immigrant women in business so you get the immigrants come over they're not sure and they're just focused on the problems and so we helped a lot of them.

speaker-0: Okay. you? All right, let's see here. So you're aiming for 1 million members by the end of 2026, 30 million meals per month. What has to be true for that to happen?

speaker-1: We just have to stay the course. think that one of the things that we're looking at right now is for the first time, we're going to raise some money. ⁓ We're self-funded, but we realize ⁓ that's not really, especially where we're going, that's not really a great strategy because as you probably know, the financial world is all around other people's money. And so when you tell them there are other people's money in something, that's like a negative thing. Like what do you talk about? We put millions in. Yeah, they don't really like that. So I've been told by our people. So we're doing that with the PDTs. We have really cool programs there for the people in the communities. So they can, for example, do loan, five year loans, where they double their money in five years at 14.8 % compounded annually.

speaker-0: ⁓ for people that are interested in funding, though.

speaker-1: They can loan, can be glad your loans. And so that's a great thing. And it's their community. say, Hey, it's your city, Toronto, your city, Detroit.

speaker-0: years 200 % return is that you're saying

speaker-1: Those by the way, those were the ones we got from the VCs What would you be comfortable with not the big things? But what would you be comfortable, you know investing other people's money? So we were told, you know, roughly 15 % would be fine if it's compounded anyway So that's why we did this so because we do plan RTG group USA will probably go public in the next five

speaker-0: Nice.

speaker-1: Go global. We want to do a bunch of different things. so, yeah, in fact, we do our first global program next month. Yeah, it's going to be really cool because it's everything has to be in North America. The one thing that we have is North America, especially the United States. United States is one of the worst countries for helping other people and having this huge problem themselves. nobody wants to recognize it, right? 75,000 people live in the streets of LA, 75,000 people, and they're worried about all this other stuff. It's got to stop. You have to keep a certain percentage here. And Canada is almost the same. Not as bad, of course. But we have to look after ourselves. So my model was built to do US first. But now with some countries, Nigeria, India, saying, we love your model. How can we work together? So we're saying, OK, we can do it. We can do it here. And then because we're evolving that money, we can do the get back and feed kids there. same way we just find our charities that are going to do the same thing and we can do that. we're starting now, next month will be our first one, our first global one and then I think this year we'll probably have about six it looks like. But still it's got to start here. Got to feed them here, got to do a homeless here and then as we recycle that money that goes back there as well. So we want to go public. It's going to be a big deal. I think this is probably my last year. I will go starting in January, I will have a CEO in Canada, CEO in the States, and then I will focus on just kind of specialty projects. That's a really cool one, like the Benefactor Program. That was a really cool one I created. want to put a small team and go after all the charities and nonprofits and say, become a member of the Benefactor Program. It's a win-win-win. Go to our website, look at the, everything's there, the deck is there. You guys can't lose with this. and you'll be able to, you want to pay your CEO a million dollars? Go ahead, pay him whatever you want. If you're part of the benefactor program, nobody can say anything if 100 % of your donation is going directly to the class because you have a benefactor. That's a great program. So we're doing programs like that and I want to just focus on those specialty programs because I think they'll allow us to scale faster and do more good.

speaker-0: That sounds like it could be in its own episode. ⁓

speaker-1: I don't like, I've never liked the implementation. I don't like the operation side of things. But when you're starting and everything, you're of, doing a bit of everything, right? And so I made the commitment. I told the team, that's it. This is it for me. So we've got to get the right people in place. That's why each PDT is independently operated, their own partners, they get the staff. So I don't have anything to do with those. And so it's, it's being set up. We're there. We're, we're. We'll be there by the end of the year for sure. And when we hit that million, now we've got great everything. Everything is in great shape. We've got great partners. Now nobody can say anything. I mean, that puts us at over $600 million a month, or $600 million a year. So all of a sudden, it doesn't work.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, what's a million times, you know, $50, right? So it's a million a month. So all of a sudden it's like, wow, these guys are the real deal. Yeah, absolutely. Only be small percentage of where we're actually going. So it's time. It's like everything else, right? Right time, right place, you know, and we just happen to fall in with everything and it was like the perfect storm.

speaker-0: That was...

speaker-1: know, CMOs wanting all these things, corporations now, 75 % of Gen Zs saying, I only want to work, and this is a really important one. I only want to work or buy products off of companies who are providing, this is the key, a measurable positive impact. They're using that word now. Basically what that means is, don't tell me how much you gave to a charity or non-profit. We don't care.

speaker-0: Really?

speaker-1: We now know where that money's going. We grew up in AI, we know all that stuff. So that's not measurable. If that's what you're selling, forget it. We've actually developed some programs for companies, ⁓ some organizations and stuff like that, that through our membership model now, they're going to implement it into what they're doing so they can have this ongoing measurable impact. Yeah, lots of opportunities for sure.

speaker-0: Mm. So that sounds really incredible. One of my questions was, I'm to say 18 months from now, what does success look like? I think you've just hammered that out. Yeah.

speaker-1: What? We've hit these numbers that we tend to kind of hit our numbers. We make them and we justify them all every time, know, monthly or whatever we say, okay, we're to be a hundred thousand by the end of this. So how are we going to do that? I'm always big and so exactly how and who's going to do what? There's the deal, right? We all buy into it. We have our, all the team meetings on Mondays and we buy into what we do every week. Steven, you know, start with the end in mind. Tony Robbins has made on that as well. That's where you got to go. got to reverse engineer it. Steven was great on that saying, well, here's where you are. This is where you want to be. how, how we got, what, do have to do to get them? Right. Exactly. And then start with the end of mine and then we reverse engineer it. So what do you need to do every month? What do you need to every week? What do you need to do every day? He was brilliant on that. He drove that into himself.

speaker-0: I think about that all the time. Like every day, I think that pops up for some reason.

speaker-1: Yeah, you know what, it's so sound and it really, again, gives you, when you do that exercise as well, again, it's like shifting the focus, right? Now you're, now it doesn't matter where you are today. Well, I'm not where I want to be. Okay, okay, acknowledge that. Okay, great. But where do you want to be, where do you want to be and how are you going to get there? Okay, let's do that. That's shifting the focus. Same as with the problems and solutions.

speaker-0: Yeah, amazing. Yeah. All right. So get wrapped up here. What would you tell a founder? They know that they need to disrupt their own business model. Yeah. But maybe they're afraid of what that change will cost them. What would you say?

speaker-1: We're gonna I'd say again shift the focus as to where you're going to be doing what you're doing today. And you you have to be honest with yourself. This is the first thing I tell all founders. Be honest with yourself. If you're not happy where you are right now, where do you want to be and what's it going to take to be there? And they'll come up with it themselves. Well I need to change this and this and this. Exactly. That's what you need to do. So ⁓ I can tell you right now I use course correct. I don't use pivot. I use course correct. ⁓ because you know what, if I've done anything, someone's sometimes again, what's the one thing I say right away? Course correct. And some people say, what does that mean? That means that I get off track so many freaking times. Just like a plane does. He's flying from, you know, Detroit to New York to LA. It's going all over the place, but the autopilot keeps course correcting. Right. And so by the time you get there, it's a deal. Ideally, they wanted to fly a straight line, but there's no way that's not good. So we're the same in business. You got to constantly course work. You've got to look at it. You've got to look at where you are, where you want to be constantly. don't, as Stephen would say, never do plans longer than 90 days. You can say, want to be here at the end of the year. I want a million. OK, that's great. Blah, blah, blah. Your subconscious won't allow you to accept that anyway.

speaker-0: Hmm.

speaker-1: So break that down into 90 days, do 90 day plans. And if you do that, you do a 90 day, 90 day, 90 day, you know, by the end of the year, you've hit your million year over. So you've got to do it that way. You can't, you can't do these, you know, some people say I'll do five year plan. What a waste of time. It's just, it's, know, it's, it should spend five minutes on that. So this is what I want to be. And then get back to the 90 day. And get everybody to buy into it. Get your entire team to buy.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: because they will and they can again. You know, the power of subconscious mind is very powerful and people have no idea. So you've got to understand that you think that you're going to do this and then you wonder why afterwards. Well, because you didn't believe it right back to the belief thing, right? You didn't believe that. mean, it's a year or two years or five years from now. You'd not believe in that, but you will 90 days. So that's what we do. 90 day plans.

speaker-0: Nice. I think this is actually like kind of a movement of sorts. My wife was telling me about this. She's, you know, this, what did she call it? ⁓ The three month calendar, like the three month year, like you just plotted it.

speaker-1: It's been around a lot of people are buying into it now. Yeah, it's been around for obviously a long time Steven in book But I think that now it's it makes more sense, especially with technology. Let's it Everything if you're if you're doing any more than 90 days, then you're ready Really missing the boat because you don't even know what's gonna happen So

speaker-0: Right. Talk about disruption, right?

speaker-1: And the other thing is, that's the other thing I would tell everybody embrace it. Somebody asked me, you use AI? was like, what are you talking about? That's like, ask me if I use the toilet. to six AIs up there, you know, and I use it all the time, like every single day I bought into it. So I think it's fantastic. And, but yeah, you got to embrace it. You've got to look, people automatically will shift.

speaker-0: I'm like

speaker-1: to, you know, I don't need that or that's no good or whatever. Get educated first. There's so many great things out there that will help you grow and make your business quite frankly, easier and better. And so embrace all that stuff and adopt it and use it constantly.

speaker-0: Thanks. Yeah, Stephen. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us ⁓ here on the Grooveseeling podcast. To our listeners out there, if you would like to hear more of these, please like and subscribe. Tell all your friends, share it. And ⁓ if you found anything interesting, useful, get in touch with us. You can find out more about Stephen ⁓ at https www.dogood-society.com. That link will be in the description for this episode. Steve, thanks again. And yeah. Talk again soon. I'll be in touch. You too.

speaker-1: Thanks. You got it. Have a great one. Yeah. Thanks. Bye bye.