Service Business Growth: Joe Rockey on the 15 Degrees That Get You Found

Nate Grossman: I got off a call this week with a founder in faith-based education who spent 35 years in the field before he tried to build a business from it. He told me his constraint was visibility. He is known inside a small circle and invisible outside it, so we counted what he had built. 55 assets, 10 course modules, a certificate program, a school curriculum, a membership, two funnels, an assessment. Total revenue to date is about $250. All of it book royalties on 50 copies. The two products that could actually produce income are dated for next year. Visibility was not the constraint. He had never confirmed that anyone wanted any of it. The gap is that validation is not a step anywhere in how he works. There is no script for talking to a buyer before anything gets built. There's no smallest version of the product he can put in front of. 10 people in charge for it. Building is the part that feels like progress, but it can absorb another two years without producing a customer. An asset nobody has paid for is a liability. And that is this week's growth ceiling.

Simone Henry: You are good at what you do, maybe the best in your market, and still the right people can't seem to find you. You watch someone with a weaker offer, pull in the attention, the meetings, the funding, and you wonder what they know that you don't. Here's the uncomfortable part: being excellent and being findable are two completely different problems. Most owners only ever solve the first one, and then wonder why the growth doesn't follow. Nate is going to introduce our guest.

Nate Grossman: Today with us is Joe Rockey, Joseph Rockey. Is it Joe or Joseph?

Joe Rockey: Either one's fine.

Nate Grossman: Okay, all right. You'll answer to either. so Joe is someone who goes after problems that entire industries have accepted as permanent, maybe. Joe finds these systems that keep people trapped and working harder for less and replaces them with something that actually moves. his work spans nonprofit fundraising, real estate, automotive, sales, and business operations. he he treats being found as a structural problem to solve, not a tact a marketing tactic to buy necessarily. Joe, welcome to the show.

Joe Rockey: Thank you for having me. I appreciate being here.

Nate Grossman: Absolutely. So you build in industries that have that have kind of given up on solving certain problems. and when it comes to being found, being visible, what is the one thing that you see people accept as permanent that actually may be?

Joe Rockey: So that well, there's a lot of things I think that they accept as permanent that is not really necessarily the case l as far as strategies and whatnot. I don't know. For five years there was a pretty good run of you just use play nicely with all the socials and they'll play nicely with you. And we now know that that is certainly not the case anymore. so there's lots of different things that ebb and flow, but what you said in the very beginning of your intro there was exactly the case.

Simone Henry: Okay.

Joe Rockey: When business owners go out to create what it is that they're doing, they focus on making the best bread, not about letting people know how to get their bread. And let's face it, the best bread isn't the bakery that stays, it's the one that sells the most. So that is the starting point that I want to recognize up front. It's 100% real. and that's that's really the problem that people are in. That the they get so trapped into their own world and that on how they do stuff, how I build the bread, what's the recipe, how long is it in the oven? What time do we need to cook it, etc., that they forget the real reason that people are buying from them in the first place, which is the what. What do I get out of paying you? Essentially

Simone Henry: no.

Joe Rockey: is what the question is. And it's my life was this way before I met you. Now it's this way after. And if you can change your mindset and figure out why and what your clients actually want from you. That's the starting point to all of this and that would be the first point I would direct people to move towards.

Nate Grossman: Okay. Yeah, nice. So as you may know, on this on this discussion on this podcast, we talk about the three things visibility, viability, and value of a business. And I think that what you're discussing today c sits in that what we call the visible visible layer. And that's you know whether the right people can find you, understand you, and remember you, right?

Joe Rockey: Mm-hmm.

Nate Grossman: And most people, a lot of people, tend to get that first move wrong. I think just talking to business owners myself that most think that visibility is more of a volume problem, that they just need to post more or spend more.

Simone Henry: Hopefully.

Nate Grossman: But would you would you agree with that or what what do you think it actually is?

Joe Rockey: No, it's definitely not it's definitely not a vision problem. It's it's it's you're not Buzzweiser who needs to know every single commercial during an NFL game. I mean that that's just in practical. Let's start with that.

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: where I believe the solution really lives at is in your actual way you look at your ideal prospect. I think that most people actually fail at that point before they even get to visibility. And I get why virtually every MBA program is copying what Harvard tells them. and what Harvard

Nate Grossman: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: is teaching is wrong, flat out, is that your ideal prospect has nothing to do with demographic data. It doesn't matter what they look like, what they smell like, their age, their education level, their region of the country, ethnicity, any of that stuff. None of that matters with your ideal prospect. Only one thing matters. What is the problem that they want solved? And do you do it or not? That's it. Everything else is a logistical problem at best. So from there, it really goes to what problem are we solving, guys? And now let's back up. Where does the market actually look to find this solution? And then from there is where you place yourself. So if you are, you know, the type of thing where people are looking for a handyman solution and just want to be told how to do it, maybe YouTube's your platform. They tried a little bit. They realized it's really harder to wire my own house than I thought. Maybe I will hire this guy, as he's shown thirteen different ways that he has competency in the field. And that's

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: the other part that I that needs to be hit with visibility, is that there's a difference between building the authority of showing you know what you're doing and building a sales piece. And many people get that wrong as another starting point. So Though like I said, the the starting point that I want to hit with is what are you actually solving? And what are you solving not from your company's perspective, but from your client's perspective looking at you? Those two changes will change everything in how you view visibility.

Simone Henry: I feel like

Nate Grossman: Hmm.

Simone Henry: I should stand up and applaud. I really do. Because

Nate Grossman: Ha ha ha.

Joe Rockey: Ha ha ha ha.

Simone Henry: like we hear this all the time, like, you know, who is your ideal avatar and what's their age and what's their name? And and it's just I keep thinking, but what if your ideal avatar is actually trying to solve a problem and they're actually crossing ages and genders and geographic, you know, whatever. Like what if what if they look different, you know, just across all kinds of demographics, right? But why can't I just

Joe Rockey: Mm.

Simone Henry: say this is the problem I'm trying to solve? Let me find the people who have this problem. I'm like,

Joe Rockey: Mm-hmm.

Simone Henry: my goodness. You just

Joe Rockey: Well that's exactly it. I mean, like, first off, why limit yourself in into a demographic? But I also get why people do it. It's never been easier to harve demographic ace you know information than ever before. I mean, you can go on Chad or Gemini and s type in any demo. Find me people who make between sixty and eighty thousand that are within sixteen miles of me and you will get a list. Okay, but that has nothing to do with the reality.

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: The reality is is what is the problem? And where do they currently go to look to solve it? And that's where you should place yourself. even if it feels counterintuitive. and in a growing everyday sense, they're going to try to find the solution in some form of an AI program, whether it be Gemini, Chat, or Claude. So how do you get yourself in there is the in my opinion, the future of the success.

Simone Henry: Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Hmm.

Nate Grossman: I th I think though, like w I mean, maybe you would agree, I don't I'm not sure, but it once you start going down the path of researching that audience and where they spend their time, that it tends to coalesce around age groups and interests and things like that. Would you would you agree? Okay.

Joe Rockey: No it doesn't. Does YouTube have a certain demographic that goes to YouTube?

Simone Henry: Not really.

Joe Rockey: Exactly. Everyone goes to YouTube. Everyone goes to to to Reddit. Ever

Simone Henry: Everybody can see too. Yeah.

Nate Grossman: Right. But but I'm saying like if if you're trying to hone in on someone who is looking for the thing that the the problem that you solve, right? That's what I'm saying. Like once you start looking there.

Simone Henry: You know what? It may depend on

Joe Rockey: No, you're you're try you're finding the place, not the person.

Simone Henry: the actual problem you're trying to to solve, right? So say you're I I met a a lady who her her program is around helping helping people who are in I guess like senior executive positions to and you know making a certain amount of money to to to just to be more financially literate and and make their money work for them a bit more. I I feel like in that in that kind of in that kind of scenario, you're probably gonna be talking to slightly older people. you know, probably people who are working in you know, a city office rather than, you know, they're not they're not hanging out on the on

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Simone Henry: the nearest farm, you know, but but generally But then, you know, then you're

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Simone Henry: gonna then she, you know, takes it down to, you know, specifically women and specifically, you know, that kind of thing. So

Joe Rockey: A and that's a niching choice, which is different. Yeah, the the the starting point is the problem you solve

Simone Henry: Which is a choice, yes. But the problem is the same.

Joe Rockey: is yeah, it's not looking for a herd per se. It's just where do they go?

Simone Henry: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: That's the the starting point. So

Nate Grossman: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rockey: again, you know, everyone goes on YouTube, you know, th th there is no criterion as far as as what you need to be there, and then there

Nate Grossman: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: is a certain element of they will find you once you're there. So

Nate Grossman: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: That would be the answer. So, with the current system of in theory, everyone's in one of those three major AIs. So, how do you become the one that they go and find to tell you? And that's your different credibility pieces, you know, and all the different visibility tactics there. But it all starts with What are they trying to from their perspective, what are they actually trying to do? And many experts get into the problem of knowing what should be done, but having no idea what the prospect actually thinks or would describe it as. and that is one of the other major problems you have with the AI world because the AI is going to take literally what they say and try to figure it out. It's not gonna do translation to if I were an expert and I knew everything about this, I really would ask this, because they don't know that. which is one of the things that have personally been a difficult thing for me with traditional SEO because you know, I would go about and say, This is what you should be asking, but that doesn't matter. It matters what are they actually asking

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Nate Grossman: Right.

Joe Rockey: and then build it for that and then guide them to the appropriate answer on your site. which

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: is again very different. Most companies are gonna go, this is what we do, we're awesome at it, they will find us, but that's not how people are articulating the situation.

Nate Grossman: Yeah. So Joe, you work with non profits on getting found as well. what

Joe Rockey: Mm.

Nate Grossman: what does a non profit get wrong about their visibility?

Joe Rockey: So the the nonprofit issue that we really solve is twofold. It's a money and a relationship problem. Because if you go back to all of this, I mean it all comes down to only two questions. It doesn't matter if you're a for-profit business or a non-profit business. It is what is the business's relationship with the prospects and what is the business's relationship with the employees? If you nail both of those two things, everything else will take care of itself. So Visibility is obviously squarely in the prospect dash client side. And the issue the nonprofits have is basically the only time they talk to their supporters and donors is when they're doing damage control or they want more money.

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: And that's about it. So the relationship is

Nate Grossman: Ha ha ha ha ha.

Joe Rockey: constantly in a state of degradation because of that. And what we do is we come up with solutions that fix that relationship. And create an additional stream of revenue that isn't tapped by the guidelines such as grant money or traditional d donations, which means ultimately the nonprofits have more control and power to use the money how they want and they can survive a recession. And that's what we help people with.

Nate Grossman: Hmm. Okay. do you feel that, you know, some of the problems that nonprofits encounter with are are similar to, you know, what businesses encounter as well?

Joe Rockey: a absolutely. I mean I mean think about it. If you're only approaching your audience in a way that is give me money, you're gonna have problems.

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: And if we think about it, that's how most companies do their outbound connections. It's either a constant look at me, buy my stuff. I guess newsletters are probably the easiest and most common ways people do that. or it's hey, we're not as bad as you really think we are. I mean, who else actually does a different kind of of a discussion? and and just think about it. that that's the problem. So if you can make yourself clearly within your department, but 15 degrees off center from what most people are doing, that's how you stand out. and I believe the easiest way to do that is to live through the emotional center of what your clients actually go through. I mean, at the end of the day, every sale is an emotional decision. So what is the emotional driving force that gets them looking in the first place? So then they find you in that state and you can show them how much better life becomes. That's the the challenge of this. It has nothing to do with features and benefits. It has only to do with that emotional, what are they getting out of it?

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: And again, I I keep bringing it back to that because it's your answer to the most important question. What are people doing wrong? This

Simone Henry: Ha ha ha.

Nate Grossman: Yeah, yeah. so fifteen degrees off center. Why fifteen degrees?

Joe Rockey: Well, because if you go too far, people won't be able to figure out what you're actually doing. And if you don't go far enough, they're just gonna lump you in with the crowd. You know, I see this a lot with people who are doing coaching or fractional type work where, you know, they get put into a normal subscription based model. You know, I'm I'm a sales coach or whatever. I charge five hundred bucks a month. And they don't really know the difference. They're they're a prospect. They just know they wanna sell more stuff. They don't know whether your script or his script's better or your methodology or method's They just know you're 150 bucks more a month than that guy. So why should I ever pick you? and that's that that's all happening behind the scenes. But if you put yourself fifteen degrees off center and have a wildly different offering that isn't comparable, but clearly is gonna help me sell stuff better. Well, then I don't have an anchor to put you against. You can make your own prices, you can make your product different and unique, and that's the true benefit of doing that. and that's why I use fifteen degrees off center. I think it's the perfect. sweet spot away. It's also about the degree of a good pizza.

Nate Grossman: We're gonna have to we're gonna have to get deeper on that here in a minute. But

Simone Henry: that's pretty good.

Nate Grossman: w if you i if you had to summarize what that means to you, what what does that phrase mean to you? Fifteen

Joe Rockey: So

Nate Grossman: degrees off center.

Joe Rockey: yeah, so so basically we're well, I mean we're our company's elite business cruises. We're a consultancy firm. Most consultancy firms walk up and say, You're really bad at something, we're gonna fix it for you. And our fifteen degrees off center is you know what, you guys are already doing things all right. We're gonna do something that's gonna make it better, and we're gonna end up celebrating on a cruise. Hence elite business cruises. completely different offering. It's still the same solution on the ground. My team becomes better, they sell more stuff, we all make more money, but it comes in with a completely different mindset and direction. And therefore it's not being compared to every other consultant and coaching group out there. It's just a different way of looking at it.

Nate Grossman: Yes.

Simone Henry: That's pretty cool. So so when an organization is hard to find, where does that actually start? Is it the message, the follow-up, the channels, or something else?

Joe Rockey: Well, we live in a in a challenging time here. and and I I really don't want to become that guy who says back in the day this is how we had to do it.

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Simone Henry: Ha ha ha.

Joe Rockey: But because of the technology curve that we live in, there is a belief, and the problem is it's somewhat justifiably so, that people will come to you. and and that you just need to build the best billboard so they pull off at the exit and come talk to you. And to a certain extent, that makes sense. However, and this is really the problem with paid ads on the social medias, So the build the better mousetrap, build the better advertisement, have people come to you is having exponentially declining returns. So we're gonna have to return to the other side of this coin, which is you doing the outreach yourself, whether it be one of the old school fashions of cold call, cold email, networking, etc. But

Simone Henry: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: I really believe that that's gonna be the fundamental difference and for multiple reasons, not the least of which is a problem that is this one is generational, is that every new person entering into the economy is better at detecting filters and AI than the corresponding person who's leaving the economy. I mean you can give this by perfect example. If you have a daughter who's going to prom and she takes a picture and puts a filter on it, her grandma will think, you're the prettiest princess ever. Her mom will be like, You did something to your hair and all of her peers will know you use the filter.

Simone Henry: Well

Joe Rockey: and that is true with all of this stuff that's happening now. So as we get rushes to automate, use AI bots, use all this, that, and the other, there's a natural push away from it. So the more human connectivity you can do with each other, the better the results your future will be. And that is the visibility solution ultimately.

Simone Henry: It's been

Nate Grossman: I think I saw something from Gary V recently. You know, Gary Vee is this big marketer. He's very he's famous for predicting, you know, the next big thing. And you know, the he famously predicted how, you know, social media was going to be a big thing back in way back in the day. But now he's saying that social media's dead. The next thing is in person events, you know. So this is I've heard this from several different people now, so

Joe Rockey: I I couldn't agree more as a guy who hosts in person events.

Nate Grossman: must be something yeah yeah exactly

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Nate Grossman: exactly okay so let's let's get into the the nitty gritty here let's so all right what are the elements a business or a nonprofit actually needs to be found so we've kind of been talking on it a little bit but let's put it all let's coalesce this

Joe Rockey: The first

Nate Grossman: For the listeners out there.

Joe Rockey: the first foundational element is you need to nonprofit or otherwise, you need to know why people would actually want to give you money. What are they getting out of this from an emotional level? yes, there's a tax write-off, and yes, I end up with a product or a service, but what is the emotional baseline? Starting point one, that's your foundation. And then starting point two, or question next point, not starting point two, that's redundant. the next point is. Where do they already go to find that information? And that's where we start getting Yes. Yeah, that's another way of putting it. Yeah. So

Nate Grossman: Or or or to fit or to fill that emotion, right? Is that yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rockey: so so where do I go to experience that giving, that that that success, the feeling like I'm mad, or all these other there's a part. You're gonna if you do this correctly, which goes back to the point earlier about you don't have one demographic, you're solving multiple different emotions. and and that is a fact.

Nate Grossman: Well, this is this I was just gonna ask this, like, are the emotions different between like nonprofit and then like business, let's say?

Joe Rockey: Well, they're different for each person. you know, you can have three different people watch the exact same event and come away with three different feelings, three different emotional responses to it. And the emotional

Nate Grossman: Well how ca how how how do you predict that then, you know?

Joe Rockey: Well, at the end of the day, there's only so many personality types, you know the the generalities. and that that's just part of it. you don't have to go all in and researching emotions and psychology like I did. the the the general things are

Nate Grossman: Okay.

Joe Rockey: if you put into overarching categories, that will this person feel bad, happy, sad, mad. You don't need to know the specific down to the down to the super nitty gritty like they were euphoric versus happy. Happy's good enough.

Simone Henry: Perfect.

Joe Rockey: so

Nate Grossman: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: Y you you get what they're looking for. And the two generalities is something better or to avoid something bad. And

Nate Grossman: Mm.

Joe Rockey: those are two points. I personally believe that selling towards something better is infinitely better than avoiding something bad. Because

Nate Grossman: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: if you do the route of avoiding something bad, you need to constantly be painting a bad and horrible dragon out there. And eventually that just turns people off. But if you go towards optimism and things are gonna get better and we can show that this is the case, well now that's hope. And that's one of the things that people are naturally drawn towards. So that's how you get into the emotional side of it. You look into

Nate Grossman: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: what emotion are people going to experience more of that's a positive emotion and lean into that. You know, and again, they're different for everyone. You know, there's gonna be some people who just wanna be seen and there's gonna be some people who just want peace and quiet. and that's okay. That's truly how you're figuring out Who are my actual ideal prospects? And think about it. There's no demographic that says I want to be happy by this way, or I wanna feel calm, or I wanna feel seen. there's or there's no one way. There's no one group who has that cornerstone. So that's what gets back to the full circle of it's about the emotional fulfillment that you're giving to people.

Nate Grossman: We had a guest on it's been a couple of months ago now that kinda talked about the emotional aspects in a slightly different context, but I think it could apply here. He was he said that there's a difference between the moving away from something, that kind of energy, you know, versus moving towards something. And I think that might

Joe Rockey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nate Grossman: be like the the the the difference between moving away from something that's bad, like the negative negative approach, right? and like scare tactics, let's say, versus you know, this is this is the bright new future that we're going towards, right? Like this is yeah.

Joe Rockey: Yeah. Yeah, th that's exactly right. A a and the further I don't know where how deep you guys went that conversation.

Nate Grossman: Well he he one thing one point he made with that was like the if you're moving away from something, eventually that tether runs out. So

Simone Henry: Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rockey: Exactly.

Nate Grossman: that was

Joe Rockey: But but see here here's the here's the the trade-off of that. It's so much easier to do that. It's

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: to be the one who's pushing away. And and you can see this every single year. There are more dramas made than comedies. But comedies make vastly more money than dramas. But

Nate Grossman: Mm.

Joe Rockey: it's harder to push people towards a positive outcome than a negative. It's just the way that it is. so that's why

Nate Grossman: Mm. Yeah.

Joe Rockey: you see this year after year and why this problem always exists throughout human history.

Nate Grossman: Hmm. Interesting. So let's let's get a little bit deeper on the fifteen degrees off center. how in the world does someone go about figuring out where their center is to begin with?

Joe Rockey: The easiest way to do that for at least this conversation as your business is what are people already categorizing you as? What what group are you getting put into? they're just another people who are trying to figure out heart attacks, or they're just another people who are helping with low-income housing. what group are you already put into? And then go, okay, that's what you guys think I am. That's not what I am. How do I Put enough space between us so that it's wildly different. And the offering and the product design, I find to be the best solution to this. So using the coaching example, since I brought it up before, you know, two coaches, both doing some form of sales training or leadership training or whatever, it doesn't really matter what the product is. I'm 350 a month, you're 500 a month, so therefore I'm gonna win on the price war game. Okay, that's basically the way most people play it. how can I stand out here? Maybe I have a better font, whatever. I mean, the essentially irrelevant things. Offering go make make an offer completely different. Instead of just giving you the training, I'm also gonna give you an in-person experience where you're going to be with me, not just through Zoom. We're gonna do it at an awesome destination where it's all together. And that's all going to be included in your purchase, which, by the way, is an annual subscription because we don't do monthly. We're actually going to solve your problem and stay with you through it. So now, okay, I get it. He's still trying to help me in whatever realm of coaching he's doing, but the price points are so wildly different because it's including a destination experience. He's confident enough to be with me in person for multiple days. And he doesn't need to run away as soon as the zoom timer's over because he doesn't really know how to answer my questions. These are all things

Nate Grossman: Hm.

Joe Rockey: that people experience once they've bought something, but they wouldn't once it's there.

Nate Grossman: Hmm.

Joe Rockey: And that's the d that's a way to be 15 degrees off center. The offering is so much different, I can't compare it, even though the underlying thing I'm getting is relatively the same.

Nate Grossman: Is there is there a way like what what happens if the organization is maybe pointed the wrong way as far as their their their center is concerned? Is that very apparent?

Joe Rockey: yeah. Yeah, you you see You first off you'll you'll see it dripping all throughout the organization in various different cracks. w when it's pointed the wrong way. one of the most common things is your pipeline will start getting cracks and breaks all throughout it. you know, you'll get people that you're forcing in there because they should be should be there. Your salespeople are gonna think, we got a great one. This is like the textbook, they're gonna go through this and buy it. And then the sale never happens and people are just pulling along and all that drained morale that comes from a pipeline delay. That's one of the easiest ways to see it when you're pulling the wrong way. And the way you point the right way is you make your products designed towards products or problem solutions. and that's that's the key difference. So you see that problem both with the relationship of the employees and with the relationship in the prospects. but that's how you can tell. You'll you'll see it all over the place.

Nate Grossman: Hmm. Let's say we have a you know, a founder led organization, they got a small team, but they don't have a real marketing function per se. Where would they start?

Joe Rockey: So where I found most small businesses tend to start, especially in the solopreneur space, is just through that direct networking. it tends to be the the easiest way to do it. I mean, let's face it, you can find a different networking group to be networking literally 247. if you look hard enough. there's always one going on. Now, there's a definite skill set of networking correctly and and doing it right and being in the right room, etc. But that tends to be one of the better starting spots because as you mentioned before, we're moving more towards in person, actual, meaningful relationships, I remember. And I'd make an argument this never really worked before, but the old school system of having a Rolodex of business cards and them referring someone, those days don't exist anymore. the the model that works much better is the ride along. you know, hey, if you're gonna give me referral, I want you to come and be there for this conversation so you see how I'm actually gonna treat your people. Either way,

Nate Grossman: Mm.

Joe Rockey: you're still starting with their C or D level person that they're referring. They're not gonna give you their cream of the crop because no one does that right away until the relationship is built. It's just a different

Nate Grossman: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: process of going through and building it up, but it also is doing three things simultaneously. As that s as that entrepreneur, you are a talking to a new prospect, that's always a good thing. You are talking to someone who's technically not invested because that person who's doing the ride-along isn't buying your stuff, they're just sending you someone. So you're getting fresh eyes upon your process. And you're growing internally. I mean, that that that's that's what you want to do, and that's what I would advise people all the time is say, hey, you know, I get that you might not be a fit for this, and that's cool. I'm just asking if there's someone who would be willing to listen that you know that you would come to. and we all just have a three-way Zoom conversation, we all see what's going on, and then we go from there. And then what happens? The prospect starts asking questions, you start answering it, and then always the person who's giving the referrals, that's what you really do. I had no idea. Well, now I know six

Nate Grossman: Huh?

Joe Rockey: other people. Now, is that always true? No. Sometimes they just wanted to see how you treated other people before they referred their sister to you. But sometimes it is legitimately true. Like, that's not how I took it when you said that's what you do. which is more of an indicator of your lack of networking skills than anything else. But these are all things that really happen. in real life and what I would recommend entrepreneurs and solopreneurs to to do in their beginning stages.

Nate Grossman: So if if networking is the first kind of start, what what do they have need to have it correct and like running in their business before that?

Joe Rockey: You need to know the problem you're gonna solve. I mean it's a starting point. I mean the again, I I I apologize for going back to the same foundation, but you need to know that.

Nate Grossman: Yeah. No, no, that's yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

Joe Rockey: and quite frankly, that might be all you actually need in

Nate Grossman: Maybe have some interpersonal skills.

Simone Henry: Mm.

Joe Rockey: I mean, I've seen the the worst introverts succeed in in in in

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: networking correctly. It's it's you have to be able to to to mirroring is a very strong skill I would recommend. you know, what are you receiving from the other person and quickly adapt to there? there's lots of different ways you can do it. You can do it through body language, that's very effective. You can do it through tonality, you can do it through dialect for those who can quickly change their voices. I'm not saying you need to become a stand-up comedian who can do six different voices, but there are people who just naturally start sounding like the other people in a conversation, and that eases people's tensions and lowers barriers. there's lots of mental

Nate Grossman: I did that

Joe Rockey: work you can do beforehand, but really at the end of the day, if I'm gonna put it down to a couple of key words to have to make your networking better, genuine curiosity, the willingness to be vulnerable, and courage. If you have

Nate Grossman: Nice.

Joe Rockey: those three things, the rest of it will take care of itself.

Nate Grossman: Nice.

Simone Henry: Mm.

Nate Grossman: I was gonna say, I I I change speaking of changing my voice, I did that one time when I was talking to a bunch of Brits, just completely unconscious. I started speaking in a British accent. Like I had no idea. Like they I didn't realize it until they stopped and looked at me, and I was like, did I just say that? Yeah, it was it was strange. But, anyways.

Simone Henry: That's funny.

Joe Rockey: It you can help though. I I I have a lot of clients in the South that can help.

Simone Henry: What?

Nate Grossman: Yeah. Yeah.

Simone Henry: So okay, so we've been talking about like getting getting more personal, but sometimes sometimes we forget we can't all we can't keep it all in our minds, especially when it comes to networking. I know there's a lot of follow-up involved. what what role does automation play in in this process to help you?

Joe Rockey: So for me, I I I really use two forms of networking. One is completely outsourced, it's called boardy AI. It's quite frankly what LinkedIn was supposed to be, which is connecting people based upon various different questions and needs and stuff like that. And it's free. So I I use them because then it's just like, Hey, based upon my network, you two seem like a perfect fit. Go have thirty minutes and figure out what life actually has in store for you. So that's cool. so in terms of the automation effect, what you do need to have is the consistent follow-up. but you also need to have a very realistic element of what direction can this go? And do I want to go that direction? And that's going to be a different point for each person of where they're at in their business, career, etc. and that's the the answer. So I would always advise not to put your people when they're going out networking. Into tiny boxes where they have to ask for your approval. you know, let them know the overall goal and strategy of what we're trying to accomplish and give them freedom to kind of figure out how. you know, we've had people who've had conversations with each other that something wildly unexpected came out. Guess what? That's the definition of an innovation, by the way. So you allow the freedom to explore different things, even if you know we always did it this way. Having an exploration conversation about how to do it a different way is really helpful. Even if you are pretty sure you already know the answer before it starts, it can be helpful for everyone involved. And that would be one of the things I would recommend. And then your follow-up is just based upon what direction you want it to go. you know, you don't follow up with everyone if you don't want there to be a connection there. and that that's that's your priority of it. But the the basic automation of it is. Depend you know, if it's an online one, it's even easier. Record it. I give the transcript to to the AI. It already knows everything about my business. I said based upon what these people said, who are the best fits I should follow up with? And then it gives me a top five of each one and I go from there.

Simone Henry: Yeah. So

Nate Grossman: Nice.

Simone Henry: how so when you're saying this follow up, it's is that a one time thing or is it consistent over a certain amount of time or?

Joe Rockey: That depends upon what we're trying to accomplish and realistically how long should it take to get there. At least in in your own personal expectations. So i i i if you think that it's gonna be you know, we're gonna follow up and and have an actual deeper one on one and that meaning keeps getting blown off, I take the person off the list. you know, if it's you know, we're gonna be building something really vast and intricate and we're gonna need a lot of planning, well that's not gonna get done in a week. So it you know, it all depends upon what it is that you're doing and what you're trying to accomplish. you know, I'm personally very impatient with people I'm gonna be hiring as suppliers. Like if I'm gonna be buying something from you, I need an answer like now and let's get to it. but there's other things I have much more runway for, such as someone who might be an investor. I give them a lot longer rope. So it all depends upon what the function, what the relationship you really want it to be, and the expectations after the fact.

Simone Henry: Okay, cool.

Nate Grossman: Sounds like you need to set up your own personal rubric in that case

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Nate Grossman: to kinda

Joe Rockey: Yeah.

Nate Grossman: figure out who falls in what category.

Simone Henry: Mm-hmm.

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: Yeah, I mean I I think that every entrepreneur should have that. I mean I mean th it used to be said, you know, you have your entire business written down. I

Nate Grossman: Yeah. Segmentation. Yeah.

Joe Rockey: mean, I have an almost nine hundred page document now that we have and it's all being run by the the AI. So every single time

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: I have a thing come up with my business, I put it to that and say, Hey, you know the whole business. Where does this person fit? Do they fit at all? and that's really sped up my my networking effect. Pretty dramatically.

Nate Grossman: All right. so let's say that you are you actually you're helping an organization to get found and earn that attention, right? So what what needs to be true in the rest of the business? especially when it comes to what happens after someone shows up, you know, they raise their hand and say, Hey, I'm interested. for that visibility to actually turn into revenue or funding in the case of nonprofits.

Joe Rockey: Yeah, I mean I I am a big believer of the in-person or at least the Zoom-based conversation. I sending them to your website and hope they click a couple of buttons doesn't work with the networking setup. And also doesn't really work on the B2B side that well, anyways. so where I would recommend is get the follow-up, get the relationship going, find out that there's an actual connection, and always have it from the lens of what are they gonna get out of connecting with me? 'Cause it it it's a seesaw. You know, you're only what's in it for yourself and it's not what's in it for them, you're never gonna go anywhere. And you're gonna be a seesaw that's constantly still, and then that's gonna make your your no one's gonna wanna play with you, is the bottom line of what I'm trying to say there. so that that's the

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: answer of of that. What can I what can I give? That's why that general curiosity is so powerful because you're constantly diving into the other person's world instead of talking about your world. And that's where the vulnerability comes into play, 'cause at some point you're gonna ask something stupid, it's inevitable. But do you feel

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: shameful, bad, and embarrassed for doing it, or do you just play through

Simone Henry: Mm.

Joe Rockey: it? And that's where the courage

Nate Grossman: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: part comes into play.

Nate Grossman: But I mean, like, you know, we're talking just about automation, AI and whatnot. Do you feel or do you think that it's it's important for the business or the organization, nonprofit in that case, to have the next step after they've made that connection? Like what happens then? What what is the follow up sequence after that, et cetera? Like is that does that all need to be laid out first

Joe Rockey: yeah, you y it

Nate Grossman: before they even go and start doing this networking, et cetera?

Joe Rockey: no, you don't need to lay it out first. That'll be something that'll keep you from ne from ever networking and be a constant procrastination tool. as a general

Nate Grossman: Okay. Okay.

Joe Rockey: rule, a because every because I know every personality is different. There there are some people who are gonna want to have every single fine detail all the way written out and perfected. There are some people that are gonna just wanna talk, talk, talk, talk, talk and just make besties and have good vibes. Those two people have wildly different ways that they're gonna be doing networking. And that's totally okay. part of it is you just gotta go do it. Find the right room that also connects with you. and and there is no again, there's no one demographic. I mean, there are engineers that want to just talk, talk their heads off, and there's other ones that just want to live inside a spreadsheet. and there's nothing wrong with either way. It's just the way that it is. So it's finding the right audience of connections within the networking group, which is why I believe established ones are way better than created ones, or at least recently created ones. and why I have a bias towards that because there's someone who's been around for a couple of years and the the the big pillars and then within yourself, if you can become that person within a networking group who's the cross networker, who says, you know what, I've never worked with them or you know what, they're not my they're not the person who's gonna buy for me ever. They're not they don't have this problem, but I know them enough to to direct you to them. Those types of additional connections really do help. I mean it's It it it's like anything else. The raw the law of reciprocity does exist. You help someone else, they're gonna wanna help you back. It's just a matter of time.

Nate Grossman: Okay. All right. well let's get into the segment that we call the multiplier effect. So basically what happens when all of this clicks? Because having visibility, if you're if you've done it right, it starts to really move that engine, right? so when an organization finally gets visible in the right way,

Joe Rockey: Yeah.

Nate Grossman: what what starts working That they maybe did not expect to to work, I guess, or

Joe Rockey: Volume is normally the easiest indicator. you know, you're you're gonna start having more meetings, more sales appointments, more sales, more production you have to do, all of that other output that comes from more. I mean vo volume's the fundamental answer to that question.

Nate Grossman: Okay. All right. so let's say that so you you've done you've done this, presumably across nonprofits, real estate, automotive.

Simone Henry: Mm-hmm.

Nate Grossman: And so when visibility clicks in that case, in those cases, how does it change what becomes possible for the rest of the organization?

Joe Rockey: So if the the so the visibility can be drawn for two different ways. It can be drawn for inbound clients or inbound employees. If you do it correctly on the employee route, what will end up happening radically quickly is that your current people will become billboards to attracting other people's all stars. and not to go down a wild tangent, it's just a fact. As a country, we are very bad at developing our own talent. It is much easier to take someone else's all-star from another team than to develop one yourself. That's just where we're at as a nation. So if your employees have that internal visibility, that internal drive and the great relationship with your business, word gets out. through all kinds of different means. And then all of a sudden during a lunch break, you're getting a call from someone who's working across the street doing something that they could do for you, but they do. You know, I I I've had auto dealers that have poached the two best guys from Toyota and the three best guys from Chevy. And guess what that does to your lot? You sell a lot more F one fifties. because instead of

Nate Grossman: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: buying the Tacoma from that guy across the street, he's buying the F one fifty from your lot. And that's what happens.

Nate Grossman: Huh. Nice. Okay. Very good, very good.

Simone Henry: So once once that being found is handled, what pressure comes off of the founder or the executive director specifically? Anything

Joe Rockey: I wouldn't say pressure goes away, it shifts. And sometimes that's the scariest part because it's a different kind of pressure now. Because now it went from just trying to solve this one problem, how do I get how do I get seen? How do I get seen? How do I get people in the door? How do we how we just in the constant stress of no one knows we exist

Simone Henry: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: to now we gotta prove it. Yeah, to now we gotta prove it.

Nate Grossman: Too many too many people know we exist.

Joe Rockey: And it's a wildly different problem. It's a different problem that you need to address internally. And some people they never want to admit this and probably don't even consciously know they can admit this. They're afraid of that now we have to prove it question more than the visibility part, which is why they never actually overcame the visibility part. and and that's a that's a psychology story we can go on forever about, but that's the

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: reality. So it it's not that the fear or the stress completely goes away. It just transforms. And Quite frankly, some people

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: are better at playing soccer than they are at baseball and vice versa. And that's effectively what happens when you switch from the one problem to the other from the leadership's perspective.

Nate Grossman: Somebody said it, I don't I don't remember where I heard this, but basically you better be able to deliver on the promises your marketing has made. You know, that's always stuck with me. Yeah, and and it's like

Simone Henry: Yeah. That's what some operations do. Why does that remind me of what's his name? Biggie, the his song, Mo Money, Mo Problems. it's really well when you really think about

Joe Rockey: Mm-hmm.

Simone Henry: it, it's it's more money, different problems. Ultimately,

Joe Rockey: Yes.

Nate Grossman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Solve one and another crops up. Yeah.

Simone Henry: right? You go from poor people problems to rich people problems. It's it's a different it's just a different set of problems, but not more problems necessarily.

Joe Rockey: Yeah, problems never go away. Yeah.

Simone Henry: Yeah, problems never go away.

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Simone Henry: They're just a different set of problems, right? You reach a new level, now

Joe Rockey: Mm-hmm.

Simone Henry: you have a a new set of challenges that you have to overcome to get to the next level.

Joe Rockey: Exactly. And then there'll be

Nate Grossman: Mm.

Joe Rockey: a new set of challenges there, et cetera, et cetera, all the way up until infinity meeting. Mm-hmm.

Simone Henry: Always. Yeah.

Nate Grossman: It never ends. No rest for the w for the wicked, I guess.

Simone Henry: All right.

Nate Grossman: all right. So let's get into the rapid clarity round. So this one just gonna ask you questions. Say that, you know, kind of the first thing that comes to your mind. This is little tasty tidbits for the audience out

Simone Henry: Okay.

Nate Grossman: there to to chew on. all right, so What is one question that every leader out there should ask about how findable their organization is this month?

Joe Rockey: Where do where does the audience go to solve this problem? And am I present there or not?

Simone Henry: That's a smart answer.

Nate Grossman: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. if someone has never worked on visibility on purpose, what is the single first step this week?

Joe Rockey: I don't know how you don't work on visibility on purpose. The the f there's three requirements to do a sale. Be seen, do the sale and deliver. So the the first step would be here, the here's the easiest one and the most passive one. Just sign up for Boardy AI and then let them start connecting you behind the scenes. that's something you can do for free right now on your phone.

Simone Henry: Mm. Boardy AI, F

Nate Grossman: Okay. All right.

Simone Henry: O R T Y.

Joe Rockey: boardy that a B O A R D Y dot A I

Simone Henry: O A R D walk. Okay.

Nate Grossman: Okay. All right. You heard it here, folks.

Simone Henry: to look that up, yeah.

Joe Rockey: It it the logo is like a it's an avatar 'cause it's an AI. It's a little guy with a cardboard head.

Nate Grossman: Ha ha ha.

Joe Rockey: so you'll know you're at the right spot.

Simone Henry: Okay, cool.

Nate Grossman: That's hilarious. All right. Simone, you wanna ask Couple air? Yeah.

Simone Henry: Do the last two? Okay, so the fastest way to tell you are pointed fifteen degrees off center.

Joe Rockey: That would be if people aren't approaching you with preconceived ideas that are about other people's businesses.

Simone Henry: Mm. Okay.

Nate Grossman: If if people aren't approaching you with preconceived ideas about other people's businesses.

Joe Rockey: Yeah. So so like a lot of times what you'll have is someone had a problem with one of your competitors and they expect you to be doing the same

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: thing. All of that crap goes away if you're fifteen degrees off center.

Simone Henry: As a marketing person, like you you hear that a lot. Like, yeah, I gave four thousand dollars to this person and they didn't do anything. It's like okay,

Joe Rockey: Mm-hmm.

Simone Henry: why are you telling me about

Nate Grossman: Mm.

Simone Henry: that? I'm not that person. But you but they put you in the bucket, exactly.

Joe Rockey: Yeah, but you're in that bucket because you're not fifteen degrees off center.

Nate Grossman: Yeah. There yeah, but

Joe Rockey: Yep. I mean web companies get this all the time. yeah, I spent all this money on a website. They told me it would take off in six in six months and now we get no traffic.

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: It's it's well, was it a bad web company? Was it a bad you I don't know, but I'm down the money and never getting it back. so therefore that stains on everything.

Simone Henry: Okay.

Joe Rockey: so that the fifteen degrees off center gets you out of that sludge.

Simone Henry: Okay.

Nate Grossman: Hmm. So the so so you want to you want them to be intrigued but not lump you in with the competition, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Simone Henry: It's positioning ultimately. It's positioning.

Joe Rockey: Yeah, if you do it correctly, it is positioning. That's exactly what it is. Ultimately ultimately you th they view you as an industry of one.

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: There's no one else that does what you do. And the easiest way to do that is look at the problem you solve and then look at the two adjacent problems next to that that you would also like to solve for people. And if you hit that unique matrix of no one is solving all of these problems, you're there.

Simone Henry: Mm. Okay. Finish this

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Simone Henry: sentence. The right people cannot find you when

Joe Rockey: You're not looking for them.

Nate Grossman: Uh-huh.

Simone Henry: Yeah,

Joe Rockey: Yeah, yeah,

Simone Henry: So if you're not meeting them where they are, they're not gonna find you.

Joe Rockey: or or at least putting yourself in a spot where you're trying to Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly if you're not meeting them where they're at, you're not gonna find them. That's why I keep saying go to the same spot they look to solve the problem. It doesn't matter if it's a Reddit board or, you know, how to videos on YouTube.

Simone Henry: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: go to where they're at and be there.

Simone Henry: Such a simple solution to being found. Go where they're looking to solve the problem.

Joe Rockey: Mm-hmm. But most people don't do it. But but it goes back to the very

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: beginning of this conversation

Simone Henry: Mm.

Joe Rockey: why most people don't do it. They only look through their own lens.

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: They don't look how people view their business. Mm-hmm.

Simone Henry: Well yeah, and that that goes back to not knowing not knowing the people that

Nate Grossman: Nice.

Simone Henry: you're trying to solve the problem for. Right. Yeah.

Joe Rockey: Yes. You get so many different perspectives of I just heard what you said. Is this what you actually meant? And that's one of the best things

Simone Henry: Yeah, you're actually talking directly to people

Nate Grossman: Mm-hmm.

Simone Henry: rather than just having AI or your marketing textbook

Joe Rockey: Mm-hmm.

Simone Henry: tell you what

Nate Grossman: Mm.

Simone Henry: to do.

Joe Rockey: The AI's gonna tell you what you wanna hear and the and the marketing company's gonna say whatever they need to say to get you to pay for another month. I mean

Simone Henry: Mm.

Nate Grossman: Uh-huh.

Joe Rockey: that at least that's the perceptions you got within it. so you

Simone Henry: Mm-hmm.

Joe Rockey: gotta come up with unbiased third party solutions. That's where networking can really help.

Simone Henry: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Nate Grossman: Yeah, there's something to be said too about you know, how w with the old adage that people buy from people, not brands. So that's you know,

Simone Henry: Mm.

Joe Rockey: Mm-hmm.

Nate Grossman: kinda gets in there too.

Joe Rockey: There there is also people buy just because other people buy it. you know, th th there

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: is definitely an element of that.

Simone Henry: Yeah. And think

Nate Grossman: Yeah, yeah.

Simone Henry: there's like a whole a status situation. Like you wanna be lumped in with with the cool kids.

Joe Rockey: On a positive type of product, yes, there there is an example of that. But there's even negative products and companies out there that people still buy from just because they know other people that do. I mean, quite frankly,

Nate Grossman: yeah.

Joe Rockey: there should not be anyone who's a fan of the New York Jets.

Simone Henry: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: They are not

Nate Grossman: Ha ha ha.

Joe Rockey: the best team in their city. They're not even the fifth best team in their city. But they exist because their parents were fans of the Jets or some guy they knew in school was. It's still true

Nate Grossman: You're gonna you're gonna start some some wars here.

Simone Henry: I know, right? Fighting words, fighting words.

Joe Rockey: though. I mean Your second best

Nate Grossman: Yeah.

Joe Rockey: quarterback of all time is best known for a fumble.

Simone Henry: What?

Joe Rockey: No one should be no one should be a fan of them ever.

Nate Grossman: Ha ha

Simone Henry: Mm-hmm.

Nate Grossman: Okay, so here let's let's we're gonna we're gonna wrap up. here is what I take from this. Being excellent and being findable are two different jobs. visibility is not about more noise, it's about being pointed in the right direction. So the people recognize what you do, but they're not getting you confused with the competition, right?

Simone Henry: yeah.

Nate Grossman: if you get that angle right, everything else downstream tends to get a little easier. So yeah.

Joe Rockey: That's right.

Simone Henry: Fantastic. Well, if what Joe said today resonated with you, connect with him and see what he is building at elitbusinesscruises.com and find him on LinkedIn under Joe Rockey. if you lead an organization that is better at than its visibility suggests, like if you're the best kept secret, then He is worth a conversation. Get that networking going. Right. And if this conversation made

Joe Rockey: Right.

Simone Henry: you realize that you are not sure where your biggest growth constraint actually is, that is what we dig into here every week. Subscribe to the newsletter at thegrowthceiling.com. Each week, one real growth constraint and how to spot it on your own in your own business. is what's in that newsletter, whether that's is visibility or something else entirely. So we would love to see you and of course subscribe, share this with another founder who needs to hear this. And we will see you next time. Thank you so much, Joe. This was a great conversation.

Joe Rockey: Well thank you for having me.

Nate Grossman: Awesome.